Can PCSOs issue FPN for failure to display excise?

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phil1234
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Can PCSOs issue FPN for failure to display excise?

Post by phil1234 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:13 pm

Hi Folks

I rather dimly put my new tax disc BEHIND the old one not in front of it. (I bought it in time, but I know thats not the issue )

I came back today and found a £60 non-endorsable FPN on the windscreen, issued by an Avon & Somerset PCSO.

My first thought is to write apologising with a photocopy of the tax disc, but failing that, is it valid?


I''ve searched the lists of PCSO powers, both acting as PCSO and acting as a Traffic Warden and I can't see anything that says they can issue this type of notice, ie one under S33 (1) of Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994.

I can find powers to issue FPN's for lots of things, but not this particular one. Am I just not looking hard enough?

Any help gratefully received

Phil

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Re: Can PCSOs issue FPN for failure to display excise?

Post by nighthawk » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:48 pm

They can issue a CLE2/6. The police issue a red CLE 2/6 and the CEO's issue a yellow version.
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Re: Can PCSOs issue FPN for failure to display excise?

Post by OldWilliam » Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:50 am

phil1234 wrote:I''ve searched the lists of PCSO powers, both acting as PCSO and acting as a Traffic Warden and I can't see anything that says they can issue this type of notice, ie one under S33 (1) of Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994.
In Avon & Somerset, all CSOs are also designated as Traffic Wardens, and the authority for these FPNs is Schedule 3 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, where there is a definitive list of offences (including S.33 VERA 1994) for which a fixed penalty can be issued.

Interestingly enough, the A&S Constabulary Web site, at:
http://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/re ... _know.aspx
... claims to give "a full list of PCSO powers", but doesn't make any mention whatsoever of the Traffic Warden role or indeed of the much longer list of FPNs that their CSOs, as traffic wardens, can issue.

Incidentally, there is actually no such thing as a "PCSO", a term that has never appeared in any legislation whatsoever in the UK - it was invented by the Home Office as part of its political move to establish two-tier policing in England and Wales without a public debate (they don't exist in Scotland). These chaps and chapesses are actually Community Support Officers (CSOs), despite what their uniforms and fluorescent jackets might otherwise claim, and are declared to be such in Section 38(2) of the Police Reform Act 2002... and that's the law!

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Re: Can PCSOs issue FPN for failure to display excise?

Post by falkor » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:09 am

hi OldWilliam great to see you here :)

the trouble is there are quite a few roles e.g. council, social services where the job is termed 'community support officer'

nothing to do with helping police but altogether more towards a social community service that the local authority is maintaning

we need the P in PCSO to distinguish from these small amount of worthy but altogether different employees :P

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Re: Can PCSOs issue FPN for failure to display excise?

Post by OldWilliam » Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:29 pm

falkor wrote:we need the P in PCSO to distinguish from these small amount of worthy but altogether different employees :P
But not with a capital "P" as part of the title... and it doesn't explain why in some forces (e.g. Warwickshire, Sussex) the CSOs are almost indistinguishable from police officers, or why their uniforms and fluorescent jackets have the word "POLICE" as big as the three words "Community Support Officer" written underneath... :shock:

There's nothing wrong with a uniformed community role per se, but not instead of police officers, and only when it can be afforded. There's a growing backlash from the public over the fact that they don't actually seem to do very much by way of dealing with crime and public disorder when it actually occurs - I realised that the world had gone mad when I found out that in some Metropolitan Police divisions, police officers had been deployed "undercover" wearing CSO uniforms so that they could deal with yobs who taunted and abused them, thinking that they were CSOs! If that isn't indicative that the implementation of "Blunkett's Bobbies" has been a disaster, I don't know what is. And CSOs are still 75% funded by the Home Office... some forces have previously made it quite clear that when this centrally-provided money runs out, the CSOs go... there just isn't any more money to cover the shortfall.

I really do feel sorry for the guys and gals who do it, many of whom actually want to be police officers. But on the minus side, the Home Office couldn't have picked a better way to separate (and to an extent, alienate) local police officers from the public... when the Olympics will require thousands of officers from around the country on Mutual Aid for a period of month or so in 2012, in many areas there won't be any police officers at all, just the CSOs.

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Re: Can PCSOs issue FPN for failure to display excise?

Post by falkor » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:54 pm

There's nothing wrong with a uniformed community role per se, but not instead of police officers
who made the decision to use them instead of police officers?
There's a growing backlash from the public over the fact that they don't actually seem to do very much by way of dealing with crime and public disorder
that is what they were appointed for - is it? to deal with crime and public disorder ?
when the Olympics will require thousands of officers from around the country
why do you think that Police Forces, especially the MET have redoubled their efforts to massively increase the number of Special Constables? so much so, that the MET have promised to make Special Constables actual full time regulars after they put in X number of hours duty

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Re: Can PCSOs issue FPN for failure to display excise?

Post by OldWilliam » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:56 pm

falkor wrote:who made the decision to use them instead of police officers?
Chief officers up and down the country, (a) because of the funding incentive already referred to, and (b) the political pressure from the Home Office - forces were REQUIRED to introduce Neighbourhood Policing Teams, and there simply weren't the police officer numbers to do so without CSOs... but remember, this was (yet another) additional requirement on forces - there are several excellent academic treatises on how requirements always increase through legislative burdens, never decrease.
that is what they were appointed for - is it? to deal with crime and public disorder ?
Not the sort that you now see regularly in London and, recently, in Bristol - because of a new Tesco Local! Seriously, no, those weren't what CSOs were intended to deal with... in fact, there was no formally-defined role for them whatsoever! Look at the Police Reform Act 2002 to see how little there is, other than just a list of powers.

But it's generally become agreed that they were primarily intended to "provide reassurance and visibility in neighbourhoods", and "to tackle anti-social behaviour". It's very interesting that, as a well-informed practitioner, you had the belief that you did... it helps to show just how little the general public were consulted or informed about what is rapidly evolving (out of control) into a two-tier policing system. We will probably never know what the Home Office hidden agenda was, or is!
why do you think that Police Forces, especially the MET have redoubled their efforts to massively increase the number of Special Constables?
None of whom will be carrying a firearm, be Level 1 PSU-trained, or be deployed with a police dog, or undertaking specialist searches. It was established two years ago that there aren't enough of any of these classes of specialist police officers for the Olympics, and these problems have never been addressed. Unless you mean that the Specials will be providing local policing services in non-venue force areas? Areas, of course, that will still need firearms officers, PSUs, dog handlers, and search teams whilst the Olympics are being held...
so much so, that the MET have promised to make Special Constables actual full time regulars after they put in X number of hours duty
Interesting... I'm not aware that this has been made widely known. Frankly, it smacks of desperation to me. Can you point out a link to an authoritative statement of this new policy?

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Re: Can PCSOs issue FPN for failure to display excise?

Post by falkor » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:36 pm

you have posted some very good information and are extremely well informed OldWilliam

great to have you on the site

I actually agree with a lot of what you say

just testing you :lol:

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Re: Can PCSOs issue FPN for failure to display excise?

Post by Big Brother » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:30 am

phil1234 wrote:Hi Folks

I rather dimly put my new tax disc BEHIND the old one not in front of it. (I bought it in time, but I know thats not the issue )

I came back today and found a £60 non-endorsable FPN on the windscreen, issued by an Avon & Somerset PCSO.

My first thought is to write apologising with a photocopy of the tax disc, but failing that, is it valid?


I''ve searched the lists of PCSO powers, both acting as PCSO and acting as a Traffic Warden and I can't see anything that says they can issue this type of notice, ie one under S33 (1) of Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994.

I can find powers to issue FPN's for lots of things, but not this particular one. Am I just not looking hard enough?

Any help gratefully received

Phil


The CLE/26 form that is filled out by PCSOs and Police officer isn't a fixed penalty ticket. It is actually a statement in ticket form. All the officer is doing is filling out when and where he saw the vehicle. The DVLA act on that information and issue an FPN.
Also worth pointing oout however that in the vehicle excise act there is a section on immobilisation and removal of untaxed vehicles. Police Officers and PCSOs don't normally have a power to do either, UNLESS the power is devolved to them by the DVLA as it is in my force.

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